draurc - 18 June 2006 10:18 PM

Administrator – it would be interesting to know if the three of us are happily (!) debating this in a vacuum or whether others are following the debate, if not contributing. Do you have that information?

There are 18 registered members at present (you can see this on the Forum home page) and, as I write this, there have been 448 viewings of this thread.  I think there may be a few “lurkers” who are following this debate anonymously, contributing to the view count but not to the conversation.  Please tell your friends/family/neighbours etc. about the forum - the more registered members, the livier the debate!

On this note, I was wondering if any of you know anyone on the Sleat Community Council who would like to register as a member and then share with us the process they undertook to decide whether or not to back the proposal to make Sleat Primary School all-Gaelic?  The report on the front page of issue 1780 of the WHFP (Friday, 9th June 2006) stated that the SCC had made their decision after “all lot of deliberation”.  But the same report made it sound like members of the SCC attended a single public meeting and then made their decision a few days after that.  I have no interest in debating whether SCC was right or wrong to declare a preference in this debate but I would be interested to hear more about their research, consultation and deliberations.

I agree with draurc’s view that, if the current proposal is the one that gets decided upon, no where near 100% of the people of Sleat are going to be happy, and that it might be better for both “sides” to acknowledge this and at least try to explore other options before it is too late.

I’ve only just found out about this forum - and can I say what a relief it is to see such reasoned, respectful debate?
I have been shocked to learn how poisonous, vicious, personal and underhand some of those who oppose the ‘Gaelic School’ proposal have been.  It is pretty well impossible to respect an argument when it’s expressed in such ways.  So a genuine thank you, the few of you contributing to the debate here, for doing it the way it should be done.

As I see it:  There are two languages in Sleat.  One, Gaelic, is in a very precarious position, despite being the catalyst to Sleat’s economic growth and vastly improved amenities.  If the education offered fails to equip its students to deal with those two languages it will fail Sleat.
A ‘Gaelic School’ will be open to all, and offer the best model available for bilingual education.
Highland Council have confirmed that all the usual learning support services etc. would be made available.
For parents who want to turn that down, who do not want their children to have any exposure to Gaelic, the council is happy to provide for them and even offer them free transport to by-pass the local school.  Meanwhile, those already in the declining English-only medium in Sleat school will stay where they are and continue to receive the restricted education their parents have chosen for them.
Can you get more reasonable and less compulsive than that?

draurc, you ask, “of those who are ‘Gaels’, who was born & bred on Skye?” The answer is probably not very many.  One might just as well ask how many committee members of SPSFA were born & bred in Skye but I’m not entirely sure how that’s relevant.  I’d be interested to know why you think that that is important.  At the end of the day, the children at the school are all Slèiteachs.  Surely they should all have the opportunity to be fluent speakers of the indigenous language of Sleat (and be fluent English speakers as well - what a wonderful opportunity for the children to be bilingual - why turn it down?).  You also say that we are not going to agree but I wonder what is wrong with that.  Since when did rural communities speak with one voice on any number of topics?  As Murdo MacLeod, the journalist for The Scotsman wrote, this isn’t Postman Pat land.  This is a real life community and the reality is that there are a multitude of topics on which we don’t all agree.  That’s natural.  I don’t think that that’s the problem.  The problem is the manner in which some people have decided to take up the “debate” (i.e. threats and abuse).
I do find it increasingly frustrating that those who support the idea of a dedicated Gaelic school are asked to defend their position.  The question should not be ‘Why should we have a dedicated Gaelic school in Sleat?’ the question should be, ‘Why don’t we have a dedicated Gaelic school in Sleat?’ Isn’t it strange that Scotland is one of the few countries (possibly the only?) in Europe that doesn’t have a number of dedicated minority language total immersion schools?  Why are we so ashamed of our native language and culture?  Why do we have this cringe?
webby, the SCC members have received so much abuse that I think it would not be fair to ask them to sign up for more.  As far as I understand it, they have been following the debate like everyone else, they have attended multiple public meetings and also invited members of CnamP and SPSFA to attend the most recent SCC public meeting to put forward their view points.  The members of CnamP and SPSFA then left that meeting and the SCC discussed the pros and cons and then voted.

Glad to see the forum is gradually growing - however I agree with the Administrator that it needs a few more voices to make for a reasoned debate.  It seems there are currently 3 versus draurc - and none openly against the proposal as such, as draurc only questions the integrity of the CC’s decision to back the proposal rather than reflect the opinion of the entire community.  For that, draurc, I can appreciate where you are coming from, although I’m not sure that I entirely agree.  I think the CC did the best they could under the circumstances.  I also think that the guidance for CC protocol is, like most guidance, very open to interpretation.

It is important to try to remain open towards the opinions of others whilst maintaining my support for the proposal, which I think offers excellent educational, social and economic opportunities to the Sleat community.

But I also live in a community in turmoil that on the whole has been forced to opt for one side or the other - there can be few fence-sitters if all the names submitted to the consultation backing one or other side are to be credible, given that the entire population of Sleat is around 780 and around 15% of them are aged under 15 (according to Sleat Community Trust’s research published last year).  I think this community needs external intervention from professionals who can approach the case independantly, have no view on the issue and who can offer a sensible, pragmatic approach to the whole thing.  As time goes on, with no intervention, all those involved will become more distanced from their opponents, and the animosity and division that has begun will only continue to grow.  As a member of the Sleat community, I don’t really want this to happen.  I know of some individuals and families who are no longer on speaking terms because of this issue, and I think that is a dreadfully sad state of affairs.  But the longer this goes on, the worse it will get.

Anyone looking in from outside with any suggestions should be brave and make a posting!  And people of Sleat, join the debate - it’s not too late!  And send the link to all your friends!!

Administrator, incedentally I only seem to be alerted by email when someone posts a reply to my post and not any post - is it possible to change this?

I read on wikipedia that English is currently the language most often taught as a second language around the world.  It is a “global language.” Gaelic has less than 60,000 speakers.  Can’t we just have one rural Gaelic school?

gleann gruamach welcome to the debate and I am glad that you find it conducted on a sensible level – long may that continue and hopefully more will join.

I entered this forum because of the apparent praise for the SCC decision which I felt, and still do, was wrong.

I also happen to believe that the proposal itself is wrong in principal and has been promoted in a manner which has only served to antagonise people. The fact that most people on Sleat only found out about the proposal from the WHFP is a sad indictment of the way it was raised – without any discussion with most of those who would be directly affected. Had there been a real open discussion about the idea, first, then my guess is that the supporters may have won over a number of doubters, but as it is, they have blown it and damaged their cause for many years to come.

You say, gleann gruamach, ‘For parents who ……… do not want their children to have any exposure to Gaelic…..’ - it is impossible to educate your child on Sleat without any exposure to Gaelic as the EM children have Gaelic lessons – not that I would claim that makes them anything near fluent, but it is not a case of ‘all or nothing’.

There are indeed two languages spoken on Sleat – some speak both, some speak one – why is it wrong to have an inclusive community school that reflects the fact that some families do not speak Gaelic? You say that an all Gaelic school will be open to all and so it will be – but in theory, not in practice – many will find the idea that their children will be banned from speaking English in the classroom (up to P4) and in the playground or at lunch or indeed anywhere in school to be unacceptable.

It is said that those who oppose the all Gaelic school need not worry as although their children will be taught exclusively in Gaelic for the first few years they will, nevertheless, pick up English from the TV, videos and the internet – that may well be correct, but is that how we should aspire to teach our children English - from the TV and the computer!!

For those who live in Ardvasar, Aird or on the loop road it is quite plainly unacceptable to subject their children (as young as 4 or 5) to the travelling times to Broadford – so they have no alternative but to send their children to Sleat Primary, and if that is an all Gaelic school, they will have no choice but to accept that or leave the area - as clearly a number of families are already contemplating. Perhaps that is what some wish.

As I have said previously I believe that both ‘sides’ need to acknowledge that they are not going to get exactly what they want and if that could be accepted then that may be the first step to sorting out this very sad situation and moving on to a more positive debate.

Faileas makes a good point - independent, dispassionate advice on the educational merits and demerits of change or the status quo seems to be left out of this consultation process, which basically seems to boil down to a rough measure of who shouts the loudest.  About as appropriate and reliable as Hughie Green’s old clapometer. 
Maybe that’s one of the downsides of the way things are done these days - involving parents and ‘communities’ in absolutely everything would surely seem as unquestionably good as apple pie.  But have we swung to the other extreme from the old days where education authorities and educationalists did all the deciding? 

I would be much happier about this process if HC’s own policy and own Education dept. were to be involved before councillors vote.
An analysis of published research into models for education in bilingual communities was offered to public meetings, and showed clearly that only Scotland follows the divided school ‘unit’ model.  Everywhere else has either never touched it or has left it behind, to great results.
Mary Galbraith is one of very few parents in Scotland to have experienced both models - and I know that her account, to a public meeting and through the Free Press, HAS persuaded a number of doubters and opponents to support the CnP proposal.

draurc, you ask, “why is it wrong to have an inclusive community school that reflects the fact that some families do not speak Gaelic?” The fact of the matter is that the current set up is in no way inclusive.  It is discriminatory and segregatory.  The children are segregated and Gaelic medium puplis are discriminated against as they are not permitted to have the same ‘whole school’ experience that the EME children are allowed to have.  As maolag asks, what kind of message does that send to the children?
gleann gruamach is absolutely correct that a total immersion school would be open to everyone - both in theory and in practice.  Some may choose to reject such a school but that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be open to them. 
This is a positive proposal.  It is a proposal to positively improve the education of the children of Sleat and a proposal to positively affect the status of Gaelic.  It’s a win-win situation for everyone.

draurc - 19 June 2006 10:16 PM

It is said that those who oppose the all Gaelic school need not worry as although their children will be taught exclusively in Gaelic for the first few years they will, nevertheless, pick up English from the TV, videos and the internet – that may well be correct, but is that how we should aspire to teach our children English - from the TV and the computer!!

For those who live in Ardvasar, Aird or on the loop road it is quite plainly unacceptable to subject their children (as young as 4 or 5) to the travelling times to Broadford – so they have no alternative but to send their children to Sleat Primary, and if that is an all Gaelic school, they will have no choice but to accept that or leave the area - as clearly a number of families are already contemplating. Perhaps that is what some wish.

Draurc, with respect, what an absurd comment - of course children educated through the medium of Gaelic are not left to pick up English purely from the media - English is the language of this community and that which is in every day use, in shops, in the street, at home and in the homes of neighbours, families and friends.  It is on signs, in books, newspapers, on the radio, as well as the other media you mention.  It is the language of this country, and there is no getting away from that.  It is also my own language and I would never claim any different.  But wouldn’t it be wonderful if this community could, with the help of the school, become a bilingual community?  It would be one of the few in the UK, but one of the very many in Europe.  The Gaelic school proposal offers this opportunity.  It is the only way in which the children would reach the required fluency in order to have the confidence to converse freely in either language.  By the time we become adults we are significantly less likely to become fluent in a second language.

You mention children living Aird, Tarskavaig etc having no alternative but to send their children to the local school - why should it be anything but?  All children would be welcomed to a dedicated Gaelic school and would be given all the support and help they need in order to thrive there.  And can I draw your attention to the reverse situation, where parents choosing GME for their children are forced to send them on long journey past their local school (for example those living in Uig have to travel to Portree)? 

The trouble with this country is that we are too complacent with being monolingual and thus expect everything to be delivered through the medium of English.  Thus we British carry the dreadful reputation of travelling abroad and expecting people to understand us by speaking slowly and loudly in English.  Basically we are just too plain lazy to be bothered learning a second language.  And don’t even start me on the historical stuff - Gaelic was at one time the language of Sleat, and no-one understood English.  A lady at the public meeting recently mentioned that in the 1970s Gaelic was spoken in the village shop.  However, because people coming into the community were not ‘forced’ to learn the vernacular language, the result was that locals were forced to learn a foreign language in order to be understood.  There is something wrong there, surely?

gleann gruamach - you say ‘..only Scotland follows the divided school ‘unit’ model.  Everywhere else has either never touched it or has left it behind, to great results.’ – is that actually correct? I am no expert on these matters (though it seems there are now apparently many linguistic experts in Sleat), but I know a man who is – Professor Richard Johnstone - who says in his 2002 report ‘Immersion in a Second or Additional Language at School : A Review of the International Research’ –

‘…..most L2 immersion classes take place as a stream within schools where
most learners receive their curriculum through the ‘regular’ or ‘majority’ language (often English)’

If this is correct then most of the evidence that supports the success of immersion education comes from schools that are dual stream ….. just like we currently have here on Sleat at the moment!

If L2 immersion classes succeed (which clearly they do), it is, I suggest, because parents and children have a choice and it is this choice that those who support this proposal wish to remove from the children of Sleat and their parents.

maolag - you say ‘…..the guidance for CC protocol is, like most guidance, very open to interpretation.’ – what is open to interpretation about ‘they [the CC] will ensure, as far as possible, that they reflect a broad spectrum of opinions within the Community’? You acknowledge that the community is divided, so how did the vote of the CC reflect the broad spectrum of opinions?

fiddler - you say ‘…Gaelic medium puplis are discriminated against as they are not permitted to have the same ‘whole school’ experience that the EME children are allowed to have’ – so is your complaint that all school activities (such as PE or assemblies) are in English rather than bilingual? If so, then I fail to see why this cannot be addressed within the system we currently have, given some goodwill on both sides (which I grant you is in short supply right now). If your complaint is also that English is spoken in the playground or at lunch, then is banning it and presumably punishing children who dare to speak English a ‘win-win situation for everyone’?

If English is banned in the playground how would the younger pupils, without Gaelic, communicate with each other? Or would they be permitted to use sign language? At lunch, how would a young child communicate with the cook to say what he or she wanted to eat? If a child was hurt would they be allowed to speak English to explain what was wrong? To what extreme would a ban on English be carried? These questions may seem absurd - but they have to asked (and answered) if the intention is to ban English, other than in very restricted circumstances (ie P5 -7 within the classroom only and then only during ‘English’ lessons). Does anyone know the answers? I may be wrong, but I imagine a number of those who are watching this discussion would be more than a little interested to know how their children will be treated should this proposal go ahead.

The banning of English at Sleat Primary would seem to mirror the ban on Gaelic many years ago. If the banning of Gaelic was wrong then, is not banning English also wrong now, or have we not moved on?

I realise that I have not addressed all the points that everyone has made but I think I have gone on long enough for one entry – that is, if anyone is still awake!

draurc - 20 June 2006 06:46 PM

fiddler - you say ‘…Gaelic medium puplis are discriminated against as they are not permitted to have the same ‘whole school’ experience that the EME children are allowed to have’ – so is your complaint that all school activities (such as PE or assemblies) are in English rather than bilingual? If so, then I fail to see why this cannot be addressed within the system we currently have, given some goodwill on both sides (which I grant you is in short supply right now). If your complaint is also that English is spoken in the playground or at lunch, then is banning it and presumably punishing children who dare to speak English a ‘win-win situation for everyone’?

If English is banned in the playground how would the younger pupils, without Gaelic, communicate with each other? Or would they be permitted to use sign language? At lunch, how would a young child communicate with the cook to say what he or she wanted to eat? If a child was hurt would they be allowed to speak English to explain what was wrong? To what extreme would a ban on English be carried? These questions may seem absurd - but they have to asked (and answered) if the intention is to ban English, other than in very restricted circumstances (ie P5 -7 within the classroom only and then only during ‘English’ lessons). Does anyone know the answers? I may be wrong, but I imagine a number of those who are watching this discussion would be more than a little interested to know how their children will be treated should this proposal go ahead.

The banning of English at Sleat Primary would seem to mirror the ban on Gaelic many years ago. If the banning of Gaelic was wrong then, is not banning English also wrong now, or have we not moved on?

Oh dear, draurc, how depressing that you could even imagine any school running such a horrid regime in the twenty first century.  English would most certainly not be banned.  I’m guessing you’ve never seen immersion teaching in practice.  It’s a very, very positive method.  Children are encouraged and most certainly not in any way punished.  There was a ban on Gaelic in schools many years ago and it was horrendous.  It was in the sadistic hope of stamping out Gaelic.  It was an imperialistic plan to impose English.  The current proposal is a positive plan to strengthen Gaelic and in no way shape or form detract from English.
At the Gaelic school in Glasgow they encourage Gaelic on the playground by having organised games such as dodge ball, lead by a Gaelic speaking adult.  They don’t stand around with clipboards taking down the names of any one who dares to utter an English word.  That sort of thing is not even contemplated.  I cannot emphasise enough the positive nature of this proposal.

draurc - 20 June 2006 06:46 PM

maolag - you say ‘…..the guidance for CC protocol is, like most guidance, very open to interpretation.’ – what is open to interpretation about ‘they [the CC] will ensure, as far as possible, that they reflect a broad spectrum of opinions within the Community’? You acknowledge that the community is divided, so how did the vote of the CC reflect the broad spectrum of opinions?.....


.....I realise that I have not addressed all the points that everyone has made but I think I have gone on long enough for one entry – that is, if anyone is still awake!

draurc, what I meant by this could be interpreted either to mean that the Community Council members are to represent a broad spectrum of opinions within the Community, or that everything the Community Council as a body does or says is to reflect a broad spectrum of opinions within the Community.  I hope you now understand what I was driving at - it’s similar to when a ward elects a councillor or a constituency elects a politician - to represent that area but not necessarily echoing the views of the whole community.  This is how democracy works.  As I have touched on in previous postings, if the Community Council was silenced because it felt it could not reflect the opinion of the entirecommunity, it could be prevented from tabling or supporting any development within that community.

Re your suggestion about “language experts” - I would never consider myself to be such, but I can see the positive effects that a bilingual education can have on a child.  Your references to the Johnson report pertaining to schools with second language units was presumably because Johnson had no other type of bilingual school available in Scotland on which to base his studies.  No-one is saying that our school is failing as it is, but we are saying it could be better in terms of total immersion in the second language delivering a considerably higher levels of fluency in the second language.  One key thing that the proposal stands for is the removal of barriers between the two existing strands of the school.  And for this coming intake there are 12 primary one pupils enrolled in GME, and NONE in EME.

Finally, re your comment questioning whether anyone is still awake, I think you will find that we are all very much awake and eager to carry on this debate!

‘English would most certainly not be banned’ - that is reassuring fiddler, however it would be interesting to see whether CNPS would come out and say that there was no problem with English being spoken in the playground or at lunch or indeed wherever ………in fact pretty much as we have now!

We hear that Gaelic does not stand a chance because English is spoken outwith the classroom (in this recent debate English has been compared favourably to cigarette smoke and also to a mink in a hen house!) – is it the case that in an all Gaelic school this will be allowed to continue as it has done to date? Anyone can speak English whenever and wherever they want?

It would be good if anyone from CNPS who is following this discussion (maybe none of them are) could comment on this point.

I do realise that CNPS would not be running the school – at least not officially (!) – but it would be very interesting to hear their views on this aspect as I would guess those views would heavily influence the way an all Gaelic school would be run.

draurc, this could be a candid way of your trying to work out who is following the debate.  It is important to remain anonymous on these debates so I would urge anyone watching in the wings not to respond to draurc’s request, in particular in the light of the “localness” of this forum.  I also note that the discussion is becoming more heated.  Could it be time for draurc to enlist the assistance of his/her fellow supporters of the status quo (if indeed this is what draurc stands for)?

I completely agree that maintaining the anonymity in a forum such as this especially over such a controversial issue is vital as it enables an actual debate to take place, rather than a series on unconnected speeches which is what tends to happen at public meetings.

I would, however, be interested to know if anyone from CNPS is following this debate – and I think it would be helpful to have their input though from which member of CNPS is irrelevant and I have no wish to know their identity any more than I wish them to know mine.

We are not having a theoretical debate about whether GM only schools are a good thing or a bad thing. We are discussing an actual proposal that, if implemented, will affect a considerable number of people so it would be regrettable if there was no input from those who originated the proposal so we could understand what their vision is.

Maybe there is someone outside CNPS who could act as their ‘voice’ in the forum.